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  1. 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Sunday, 25-Aug-2019 22:22:32 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
    • Steven Roose

    @stevenroose A strike as "a refusal to work organized by a body of employees as a form of protest, typically in an attempt to gain a concession or concessions from their employer."... Who is the employer here, who are the employees, and what exactly is their demands?

    I support any organization for climate change but it depends on these details of course. I see Greta's picture on the front of the page which instantly has me concerned of the direction and ethics. She took a pretty damaging stance/response to address climate change so I'd be hesitant to support this specific movement, though perhaps im wrong, im willing to hear more.

    In conversation Sunday, 25-Aug-2019 22:22:32 UTC from qoto.org permalink
    • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Sunday, 25-Aug-2019 22:53:12 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
      • Steven Roose

      @stevenroose In general I can get behind that. So the idea is the citizens refuse to go to work, any work, until the government does what we demand? What do we demand? Are the people really prepared to be out of work that long? Because i doubt the governments will cave so we are talking a lot of people out of work for a long time.

      Aside from Greta herself I like what im hearing so far.

      In conversation Sunday, 25-Aug-2019 22:53:12 UTC permalink
    • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Sunday, 25-Aug-2019 22:59:59 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
      • Steven Roose

      @stevenroose No you are probably right, i might be wrong.

      It sounds like less of a strike and more of a march, lasts a few hours and its over. Thats better than nothing as it brings awareness. But sadly it sounds like too little too late. We need more than marches.

      In conversation Sunday, 25-Aug-2019 22:59:59 UTC permalink
    • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Sunday, 25-Aug-2019 23:05:25 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
      • Steven Roose

      @stevenroose I'd join them to. Only thing that would cause me not to join them is if Greta was a spokesperson for them or otherwise endorsed by them. Otherwise I support it.

      In conversation Sunday, 25-Aug-2019 23:05:25 UTC permalink
    • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Sunday, 25-Aug-2019 23:35:49 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
      • Steven Roose

      @stevenroose Mostly that she takes an anti-education stance which to me is more damaging than an anti-climate stance.

      Saying "I want to bring awareness to climate by encouraging everyone to boycott education/school every friday" sounds extremly harmful. It would be like an educator bringing awareness to education by saying "I want to bring awareness to education by encouraging people every friday to dump toxic waste into their local river"

      Encouraging something harmful to the community as a form of protest against something harmful to the community is a failed tactic.

      In conversation Sunday, 25-Aug-2019 23:35:49 UTC permalink
    • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 26-Aug-2019 00:31:29 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
      • Free Pietje
      • Steven Roose

      @FreePietje

      If they want to protest it then why get out of school why not go on the weekends to show us they are really committed. If they are taking off school its kind of negating any good they do. When I was a kid if I could get an excuse to get a day off school I would.

      I'm sorry I just cant respect that message.

      @stevenroose

      In conversation Monday, 26-Aug-2019 00:31:29 UTC permalink
    • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 26-Aug-2019 00:39:41 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
      • Free Pietje
      • Steven Roose

      @FreePietje

      Then why not disrupt society on the weekends. They can all go march on their local government and do something disruptive like storm in on their politicians... the SS couldn't stop little kids right? It would go noticed at least, they wouldn't arrest them!

      I dont care what, something disruptive, something good, but ont he weeekends, or after school or whatever.

      @stevenroose

      In conversation Monday, 26-Aug-2019 00:39:41 UTC permalink
    • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 26-Aug-2019 00:48:28 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
      • Free Pietje
      • Steven Roose

      @FreePietje

      I listed an exampled in my last reply of how they could negatively affect people after school and ont he weekend. They get out, what, 2. go straight to .a disruptive protest after school each day. Depending onw hee they live they may even have access to city hall. Go disrupt there from 2 - 6 every day!

      they have options.

      I reject your hypothesis that you cant be disruptive after school and on the weekends.

      @stevenroose

      In conversation Monday, 26-Aug-2019 00:48:28 UTC permalink
    • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 26-Aug-2019 01:05:59 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
      • Free Pietje
      • Steven Roose

      @FreePietje

      Well hold on, lets be honest. Here is what SHOULD. Happen. Our children shouldnt need to stand up for us at all. We should put them in school where they belong while WE take off work once a week to protest or some shit.. But of course we wont do that will we (well you might, i mean humans, adults, everuone :) )

      @stevenroose

      In conversation Monday, 26-Aug-2019 01:05:59 UTC permalink
    • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 26-Aug-2019 01:07:35 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
      • Free Pietje
      • Steven Roose

      @FreePietje

      Well hold on, lets be honest. Here is what SHOULD. Happen. Our children shouldnt need to stand up for us at all. We should put them in school where they belong while WE take off work once a week to protest or some shit.. But of course we wont do that will we (well you might, i mean humans, adults, everuone :) )

      **Thats's** really my stance!

      @stevenroose

      In conversation Monday, 26-Aug-2019 01:07:35 UTC permalink
    • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 26-Aug-2019 14:15:52 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
      • Steven Roose

      @stevenroose Depends on the nation and the person. I spent most of my free time learning so I could have skipped a few fridays and be fine. However Greta and people like her are behind in school (she was held back into a special learning school if i recall correctly). The vast majority of students are dumb as bricks these days, yes they desperately need school.

      People refusing to work is different than people refusing to LEARN. If adults took a day where they refused to read books or learn or go to school it would be just as idiotic.

      In conversation Monday, 26-Aug-2019 14:15:52 UTC permalink
    • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 26-Aug-2019 14:16:07 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
      • Free Pietje
      • Steven Roose

      @stevenroose

      They do work from 2-6 after school.

      @FreePietje

      In conversation Monday, 26-Aug-2019 14:16:07 UTC permalink
    • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 26-Aug-2019 14:17:15 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
      • Free Pietje
      • Steven Roose

      @stevenroose

      Well yea when you act like a child and become destructive (telling people to skip school) yea you will get attention for sure.

      If someone trying to bring awareness to education urged people to dump toxic waste into a river every friday I can garuntee you he would get WAY more attention too.

      Getting attention is not a good measure in isolation sadly.

      @FreePietje

      In conversation Monday, 26-Aug-2019 14:17:15 UTC permalink
    • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 26-Aug-2019 14:18:02 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
      • Free Pietje
      • Steven Roose

      @stevenroose

      Sadly my generation was VERY active prior to greta. So active they became violent, thus why i had to flee america to live in europe.

      @FreePietje

      In conversation Monday, 26-Aug-2019 14:18:02 UTC permalink
    • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 26-Aug-2019 14:21:10 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
      • Free Pietje
      • Steven Roose

      @FreePietje

      I think the solution would be better if they were just required to do some field work ont he day they take off. Make each friday a ecology education day. Require students to learn things that might better equip them for the war on climate change and require them to do a report on it each monday. This way they arent skipping school at all, school on friday is just becoming relevant to their drives.

      @stevenroose

      In conversation Monday, 26-Aug-2019 14:21:10 UTC permalink
    • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 26-Aug-2019 16:25:16 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
      • Free Pietje
      • Steven Roose

      @stevenroose

      I disagree that they are harming no one. Kids are already coming out of school dumb as bricks. Greta of all people was moving to a special needs school she fell so far behind. The damage is very real and in fact the underlieing cause of the climate issue. We need more education, more study, more rigour and understanding, not less.

      If school really doesnt matter in sweden and belgium then you have a serious issue with your school system not educating student and that needs to be addressed. All the more so a message of "just skip school" has no place there if school is already doing poorly. If anything the message should be "study harder in school"

      @FreePietje

      In conversation Monday, 26-Aug-2019 16:25:16 UTC permalink
    • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 26-Aug-2019 17:46:37 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
      • Free Pietje
      • Steven Roose

      @stevenroose

      Thats not the impression I get. Aside from Greta herself needing to be put in a special needs school I live in europe (the netherlands) and used to live in the USA. If there is one thing that is evident to me it is that the school in neither country "works well" We have kids coming out of school dumb as bricks and its a HUGE epidemic that needs addressing. When schools are so woefully inadequate the last thing we need are people proposing leaving it or agendas that dismiss its importance.

      I dont think i exagerate the importance of those fridays at all, if anything i understate them. Not just the fridays but the need for MORE school, and BETTER school, not less. Society is so uneducated these days and so easily swayed by nonsense facts society is barely holding together right now.

      @FreePietje

      In conversation Monday, 26-Aug-2019 17:46:37 UTC permalink
    • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 26-Aug-2019 18:48:37 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
      • Free Pietje
      • Steven Roose

      @FreePietje

      Fair i had a similar feeling, the jeaousy remark wasnt the best of wording and drifted into personal. But it wasnt the worst of insults so i let it slide.

      While i disagree with his main point and feel it is much more serious than he does I do respect his opinion all the same.

      My problem with greta is simple. In an age where lack of education is causes climate change denial and for society itself to break down the most important thing we need right now is an environment that encourages people to be educated and well informed. Greta's movement is contrary to that and damaging more so than it is helpful.

      Yes greta as Aspergers. Generally people with aspergers can perform very well in school, some dont. It may be this aspergers that is holding her back i dont know. But the fact is the factthat she is struggling to keep up with others her age is an indication she should be investing MORE time in school not less. If you are behind, whatever the reason, you are probably the last person who should be skipping school let alone encouraging others to do so.

      @stevenroose

      In conversation Monday, 26-Aug-2019 18:48:37 UTC permalink
    • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 26-Aug-2019 18:51:42 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
      • Free Pietje
      • Steven Roose

      @FreePietje

      It isnt an entierly different discussion. When part of your tactic is to protest schools it is no longer a seperate discussion but rather vital to the current one.

      Yes we need action, it isnt the study, from the perspective of scientists, that is lacking. What is lacking is the understanding int he general population which allows for climate change deniers to exist. This is the direct result of lack of good education and critical thinking skills.

      All I know is most people around the world, including the dutch and americans, are dumb as bricks and are more than capable of being quite bright if they were educated. People just stop learning how to learn, and actually doing it, a long time ago.

      The climate crisis is a direct result of this, it is why climate change deniers can thrive when its so easy to debunk.

      @stevenroose

      In conversation Monday, 26-Aug-2019 18:51:42 UTC permalink
    • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 26-Aug-2019 19:09:22 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
      • Free Pietje
      • Steven Roose

      @FreePietje

      Im not sure intelligence is the right word. Intelligence speaks of potential not application. It seems to be a lack of critical thinking skills and a lack of understanding logical fallacies and objective scientific methods for arriving at truth.

      Schools, if done right, teach rigerous science and how to distinguish between truth and fact. They teach formal logic, logical fallacies, and Data analysis, all of which give you the tools needed to reach more objective truths.

      Sadly with education seen as such a low priority and with kids not even going to school (and not being taught well even if they did go to school) I feel that leads far more to climate change deniers than just "intelligence" would.

      @stevenroose

      In conversation Monday, 26-Aug-2019 19:09:22 UTC permalink
    • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 26-Aug-2019 19:19:09 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
      • Free Pietje
      • Steven Roose

      @FreePietje

      Those are valid concerns for sure. My point is if we had a society filled with critical thinkers then Oil companies wouldnt have gotten away with the lie in the first place.

      Even now the people who oppose the oil companies are so uneducated they make emotional pleas and protests that seem like a positive act ont he surface but tend to be self destructive of their own causes. This in turn fuels the climate change deniers because when those whoa re pro-climate make absurd claims and are easily debunked it causes them to use this as a way of discrediting the whole moment, sadly.

      A few examples. The amazon fires. All the scientists on the issue are well aware that the trend in forest fires are generally on the decline inteh amazon. This year the total number of fires is not unusual for the dry season in anyway compared to previous decades and rolling averages. Yet the left makes it sound like 80% of the forest is on fire (the actual number is 0.0054% as of last week). So while deforestation is a very real and critical problem by being too uneducated and focusing on the forest fires instead ultimately hurt their cause.

      Another example are the trend of protests on oil pipelines, when people should be protesting gasoline consumption (which would require them to look at themselves as well). Pipelines themselves reduce oil consumption since they replace transportation along boat and trust with pipes. Pipelines consume far far less fossil fuels in transport and do far less harm to the environment than an equivalent number of trucks transporting the same fuel. As such it is self-destructive to protest the pipelines when they should be protesting the consumers.

      These patterns of uneducated group-think result in the whole climate change movement to be discredited, which is unfair because the core scientists are still right even if the people are uneducated and absurd.

      If we had a more educated public then those who are pro-eco would behave in ways that would be more respectable and thus would like drive fewer people to oppose the movement and discount it. Never mind the fact that there are plenty of uneducated right wingers too who deny it just due to their own lack of education as well, rather than as an effect of a discredited left.

      @stevenroose

      In conversation Monday, 26-Aug-2019 19:19:09 UTC permalink
    • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 26-Aug-2019 19:33:16 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
      • Free Pietje
      • Steven Roose

      @FreePietje

      I am a Data scientist, thats NOT how we measure if something is statistically unusual. I mean just think about it, how do you know if the 80% increase from last year is due to last year being unusually low in fires rather than this year being unusually high?

      Obviously if people were more educatede they would know the second they hear something like "80% increase from last year" that such claims are BS and every red flag should go off, thats not how scienstists measure things.

      What we would do is use a distribution, compare the last few DECADES, and try to see what distribution describes the event we are describing. At that point we see where this year falls compared to the previous years.

      What you find is that this year is in no way special. It is statistically insignificant. You just so happen to have a year with an unusually low number of fires preceding a year with a more normal number of fires. In fact with forrest forest that is exactly how it works. The more years you go without a fire the bigger the fire is once you have one. So in fact with any rigorous analysis we quickly see that the trend is fewer fires, not more, despite the twisting of data in the way you just suggested.

      @stevenroose

      In conversation Monday, 26-Aug-2019 19:33:16 UTC permalink
    • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 26-Aug-2019 19:36:35 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
      • Free Pietje

      @FreePietje If they arent selling oil then they dont need pipelines. The fact that they want to sell oil in a way that costs them less money by not wasting more oil than they need to in the act of transporting oil is hardly something we should be mad at them for. They only sell the oil we buy. So the only people to blame is us for buying it. But no one ever wants to blame the people for their collective bad moves.

      With that said lets take what you said at face value and ignore my objection. The response should be to push for a pipeline tax that ensures the cost of building a pipeline is high enough that it offsets any damage it does as best we can. This negates the argument of a financial advantage that can be used to harvest more oil.

      In conversation Monday, 26-Aug-2019 19:36:35 UTC permalink
    • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 26-Aug-2019 19:37:38 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
      • Free Pietje
      • Steven Roose

      @FreePietje

      The only reason social media and news is to blame, as you yourself said, is because people arent educated enough to understand the nuance. If they were then the news would not be particularly effective at lying.

      @stevenroose

      In conversation Monday, 26-Aug-2019 19:37:38 UTC permalink
    • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 26-Aug-2019 19:40:56 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
      • Free Pietje
      • Steven Roose

      @FreePietje

      Also check out this post were i go a bit deeper into the data. You can see the 80% increase over last year int eh data but it is also evident that we had an unusual low number of fires the last year and a few years before. As can be seen this years number of fires is still below the average for last decade.

      https://qoto.org/@freemo/102678852721648878

      @stevenroose

      In conversation Monday, 26-Aug-2019 19:40:56 UTC permalink
    • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 26-Aug-2019 20:02:17 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
      • Free Pietje
      • Steven Roose

      @FreePietje

      I see a very different sequence of things that mde it a big deal. #1 happens every year, last year canada was covered in smoke fromt he siberian fires as well. Even philly smelled the smoke.

      #2 is closer to true but its not just the politicians.

      Here is how it really went down..

      1) notre dame burned and news media made a fortune off the coverage. Then everyone complained that everyone was watching Notre Dame burn and no one cared about the forests that were burning (partly because burning forests arent really a big eco issue right now)

      2) for some months memes circulated reiterating the idea of notre dame and the forests burning.

      3) media, ever looking to make money and draw attention to nonsense saw this trend. So now that its dry season again they focused their coverage ont he forest fires just as everyone cried over, even though it was a non issue they did what they did best and made it sound like the world was ending all to get people hyped and watching more news.. it worked.

      Meanwhile the REAL global climate issues continue to be ignored...

      @stevenroose

      In conversation Monday, 26-Aug-2019 20:02:17 UTC permalink
    • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 26-Aug-2019 20:03:14 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
      • Free Pietje
      • Steven Roose

      @FreePietje

      I will check this out. But please be aware I am not and have never been a koch fan. So any article about ock to discredit him will mostly be lost on me since i largely just dont care about kock or his opinions much.

      @stevenroose

      In conversation Monday, 26-Aug-2019 20:03:14 UTC permalink
    • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 26-Aug-2019 20:08:13 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
      • Free Pietje
      • Steven Roose

      @FreePietje

      Yea he did. But thats not money's problem. Only reason money works to convince people of climate change denial is because people arent educated enough to do the research themselves so they rely on media to convince them what to think int he first place.

      In a well educated society Koch's money would be a vain attempt lost into the ether and the only result would be him having less money with no effect on climate activism.

      So while koch was an asshole I wouldnt say he is the root of the problem, only the symptom.

      @stevenroose

      In conversation Monday, 26-Aug-2019 20:08:13 UTC permalink
    • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 26-Aug-2019 20:45:45 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
      • Free Pietje
      • Steven Roose

      @FreePietje

      Thats really surpising it was a huge trend on facebook for months, flooded my whole stream before the amazon fires. Attached are some examples.

      @stevenroose

      In conversation Monday, 26-Aug-2019 20:45:45 UTC permalink

      Attachments


      1. https://storage.gra5.cloud.ovh.net/v1/AUTH_011f6e315d3744d498d93f6fa0d9b5ee/qotoorg/media_attachments/files/005/201/414/original/be110c1ae4f5a834.jpg

      2. https://storage.gra5.cloud.ovh.net/v1/AUTH_011f6e315d3744d498d93f6fa0d9b5ee/qotoorg/media_attachments/files/005/201/416/original/ccdf842a39b8761c.jpg

      3. https://storage.gra5.cloud.ovh.net/v1/AUTH_011f6e315d3744d498d93f6fa0d9b5ee/qotoorg/media_attachments/files/005/201/420/original/c390319274f4f266.png
    • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 26-Aug-2019 20:48:40 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
      • Free Pietje
      • Steven Roose

      @FreePietje

      Basically was going on during the siberian fires last year. So everyone demanded forest fire coverage in outrage. This year they got it.

      @stevenroose

      In conversation Monday, 26-Aug-2019 20:48:40 UTC permalink
    • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 26-Aug-2019 21:51:22 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
      • Free Pietje
      • Steven Roose

      @stevenroose

      Well yea pipelines make prices go down because it means you dont need to waste half a barrel of oil in order to ship the other half. So you get more oil when you buy it since less of the oil was wasted.. sure. That isnt a bad thing. To take the stance of raising oil prices through a tactic that that wastes oil to do it is ultimately lunacy.

      By that logic we should pass a law where everyone needs to buy a hummer or other fuel **inefficient** car. This ensures gas prices stay high so people wont buy it... Even if people buy less oil as a result it, as a policy, is lunacy.

      @FreePietje

      In conversation Monday, 26-Aug-2019 21:51:22 UTC permalink
    • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 26-Aug-2019 22:06:20 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
      • Free Pietje
      • Steven Roose

      @FreePietje

      Well seems we mostly left off in agreement anyway. If we disagreed on anything it seems to be more the nuance than the overarching points.

      So yea, not really sure there was much left to discuss anyway.

      But if you feel you have anything more to add feel free later.

      Thanks for all your input.

      @stevenroose

      In conversation Monday, 26-Aug-2019 22:06:20 UTC permalink
    • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 26-Aug-2019 22:20:52 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
      • Free Pietje
      • Steven Roose

      @FreePietje

      I'm very sorry. I didnt mean to make it sound like i was belittling you. I did belittle the argument as absurd, but that was before i knew that you yourself believe int he argument.

      I try very hard to attack ideas, not people, so if you felt attacked I'm sorry that wasnt the intention.

      For the record I think you handled yourself maturely, intelligently, and did your best to review the facts as they were presented. I would have no valid reason to belittle you.

      @stevenroose

      In conversation Monday, 26-Aug-2019 22:20:52 UTC permalink
    • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 26-Aug-2019 22:23:39 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
      • Free Pietje
      • Steven Roose

      @FreePietje

      By the way the dumping of toxic waste into the river, the visceral reaction it gave you is exactly the reaction i had when i first heard about Greta.

      You have to keep in mind a HUGE part of my life was fighting for advocacy to better education and access to education. I have felt for decades now it would lead to a reality that looks a hell of a lot like the one we are now in.

      So to me it isnt an exaggeration or meant to be an offensive analogy. It is simply exactly what it sounds like when I hear Greta talk and it is an offensive stance to me.

      Regardless i do appreciate you sharing the fact that those points were offensive to you. Again im sorry, I was trying to attack the ideas, not the people. If i didnt succeed at that I will try harder next time.

      @stevenroose

      In conversation Monday, 26-Aug-2019 22:23:39 UTC permalink
    • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 26-Aug-2019 22:33:38 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
      • Free Pietje
      • Steven Roose

      @FreePietje

      As a Native american myself I followed that iinstance rather closely including the court battles. It seemed clear to me it was not land owned by the native americans and the claim to it being sacred land was also reviewed and discredited. But with that said, any arguments of it being their land, if that case could be made with some evidence, would be a valid one to me in isolation. That would be true though regardless of if it were a pipeline or not.

      But from an eco standpoint the fact is that millions of trucks mving every day to transport oil, will do FAR more damage to polluting their river (and source of life than the pipeline. So even if the purpose is to preserve the health of the rivers then they fail at that purpose by blocking the pipeline, which would be a positive improvement in terms of. eco impact on that and all other rivers.

      But i agree with the idea that oil spills happen, and they may pollute that or other rivers. totally legit. My point is the solution to that is not requiring oil companies to transport oil via means that pollute more than pipelines, that doesnt solve your concern of oil spills (in fact it makes them worse). The only way you stop it is to reduce the consumption of the oil. That means you have to point the finger at the people not the companies, something the left seems incapable of doing (meanwhile the right refuse to acknowledge a problem exists at all).

      @stevenroose

      In conversation Monday, 26-Aug-2019 22:33:38 UTC permalink
    • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 26-Aug-2019 22:34:47 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
      • Free Pietje
      • Steven Roose

      @FreePietje

      My argument has nothing to do with IQ or even intelligence in the technical sense of the word. I dont think nor want, everyone to have an IQ of 120+ either. What i do want is people to be educated and have critical thinking skills. something ive seen plenty of people with low IQ learn if they bothered to formally study logic.

      @stevenroose

      In conversation Monday, 26-Aug-2019 22:34:47 UTC permalink
    • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 26-Aug-2019 23:15:17 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
      • Free Pietje
      • Steven Roose

      @stevenroose

      Fair, it seemed rare enough here on mastodon. Mostly a facebook thing for a while there.

      @FreePietje

      In conversation Monday, 26-Aug-2019 23:15:17 UTC permalink
    • Steven Roose (stevenroose@x0f.org)'s status on Monday, 26-Aug-2019 23:20:10 UTC Steven Roose Steven Roose
      • Free Pietje

      @FreePietje
      What a mature way of ending a discussion guys! 🤝
      👀
      @freemo

      In conversation Monday, 26-Aug-2019 23:20:10 UTC permalink
      🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 repeated this.
    • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 26-Aug-2019 23:22:11 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
      in reply to
      • Free Pietje
      • Steven Roose

      @stevenroose

      I found everyone in this conversation behaved maturely. I have a great deal of respect for both of you for doing so, thank you.

      @FreePietje

      In conversation Monday, 26-Aug-2019 23:22:11 UTC permalink
    • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Friday, 01-Nov-2019 16:07:43 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
      • Free Pietje
      • Steven Roose

      @FreePietje

      Thanks for sharing. I knew that, they happen all the time. We should absolutely strive to reduce them. Not building them simply doesnt do that, it makes it worst. What would is abstaining from consumption.

      So when I see leaks like that my response is basically "Oh crap if even the most efficient way of transport is polluting, then we really have to cut back our oil addiction **now**!. But my response is not "Lets move to less efficient ways of transporting oil in response to the most efficient way not being perfect"

      So hope that explains my side.

      It was nice chatting.

      @stevenroose

      In conversation Friday, 01-Nov-2019 16:07:43 UTC permalink

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