🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
I mean i saw the meme as "look at all those corpses its sad". I entierly agree. When my grandma died it was sad too, the fact that it was the circle of life doesnt negate that for me, nor does it suggest that our effort to prevent her death was in vain.
As a meat eater I tend to agree with the vegan view that eating meat is immoral. I just admit to my own immorality
🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
I killed your grandmother and fed her to my hungry pigs. I am not sad I participated in the circle of life :)
🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
I think you miss the issue. It has nothing to do with the fact that pros do the work for you, or even that they can produce more meat.
The issue is that with factory farming the conditions for the animals are often unacceptable by the moral standards of the people who protest it. Specifically confinment in small spaces or lack of mental enrichment.
🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
In the end the point is there is a huge gap between what we do now and what the most ethical version of food production we might be able to achieve. Ethical means ensuring the animals you eat are relatively enriched and happy during their life time, presuming you are going to eat animals at all. It is obviously more ethical not to eat animals.
🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
Well thats the problem, how attached you are to something has little to do with how ethical it may be to kill that something, let alone torture it for its life first.
A murderer may have no attachment or negative feelings about the people they kill. That isnt making the killing anymore ethical however.
🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
Yea at least if they are raised ethically (and yes that means less of it) then we can eliminate the vast majority of the immorality. The death itself isnt as big a deal to me as a life of suffering.
🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
The way in which vegans promote veganism leaves a lot to be desired for sure.
But if you kill an animal for food when you had alternatives then I'd argue this is always less moral.
With that said I do agree there is a tipping point. Cows can be raised on land no suitable for plants. Which means maximizing food production ethically is marginally at odds with complete conversion to veganism.
saxnot
@freemo I always enjoy arguing with you, Doctor Freeman.
It's witty and with nice learning curve.
🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
Aww thanks, I've always enjoyed our discussions and debates as well.
🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
While I have little doubt that animals have the same diversity of feelings and rich internal emotional landscape that we do, for the most part, other than that, I agree.
🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
The torture doesnt occur in the killing. The torture is from a life of being in confined spaces and having their babies taken from them and similar.
So how they kill them is largely unrelated to the accusation of torture.
🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
I am not making any claim as to what is measurable or verifiable. Neither science nor myself can even verify if **you** have emotions anything like my own, let alone some other animal.
But at least for me since animals show all the same emotions as humans and with the the same, and sometimes even more, dramatic expression, it seems reasonable to me to assume they are more alike than different.
All the anecdotal evidence points to it being more the same than different, so without a way to test it I'm going to assume you can feel feelings because you act like you do, I will assume the same for most other animals.
🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
Life being shit is part of life. For those of us that strive to be moral people, then doing our best to eliminate said shit should be our constant goal :)
🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
Insecs show pain response, so any assertion that they cant feel the pain of being crushed is very weak evidence.
Just because they have very different anatomy and the mechanisms for pain may even have some fundemental differences, its still a huge HUGE leap to say they dont feel pain when that is an untestable assertion and when they show pain avoidance response.
🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
There are a lot of efforts to investigate animals perception, some might even go so far as to make claims as to what an animals internal perception might be. IMO its all unrestable and bunk. We can at best show how animals respond, nothing more.
🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
You'd have to make a solid argument how such a claim could even be falsified before I'd accept those conclusions. I'll check out the link.
🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
You have yet to convince me they are an automation. You linked a study which i have yet to review. I have not checked if that study is cherry picked, or if it even concludes what you suggest it does. I will let you know once I've read it. But as I said right now I cant see how such a claim could be even remotely falsifiable.
🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
I dont agree with that conclusion at all. We know of **tons** of evolutionary features that look damn near identical but evolved along entirely different pathways and thus have entirely different internal structure despite having the exact same end function.
Just because an animal lacks the specific structure a human might use to perceive pain is in no way suggestive they dont perceive pain, particularly considering that they do show a pain response. It just means that the mechanisms they evolved to perceive pain happen to be different than the mechanisms we might use.
🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
If it were cherry picked, not saying it is, it has ittle to do with if it was cherry picked intentionally or not. Search engines respond based on popularity, not peer review. So that doesnt really mean much.
🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
Also sentience is even less useful of a term. To me sentience has no meaning of any kind, technical or other, just something humans desperately grasp at to tell themselves they have something special.
Sentience is vapor ware of vocabulary for me.
🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
I care more about what is true than what ideas do the least harm.. if an idea is harmful but true, we should recognize it anyway.
🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
It could just as easily be that the pain receptors in other insects are simply non-common and unique enough that we havent identified what they are.. Again havent read the study yet but just saying the claim itself is nonfalsifiable for reasons like this.
Not saying the study is wrong, i have to read it.. but for me the better indication would be "does it show a pain response or pain avoidance"
🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
Seems reasonable then. I mean seems to be an easy thing to test. Blind an insect, cut into them, and see if the insect reacts. I'll be curious to read the paper.
🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
@saxnot It was a pleasure here as well.
Shame that, but hey if thats what you enjoy do it. I personally like my toots staying put.
🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
@saxnot By the way most servers tend to cache toots. I know for our server all your past toots older than 7 days are still searchable from our end at least.
🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
Well there are disorders in humans where they cant feel hot or cold but can feel other forms of pain. The receptors for hot and cold are, in humans, different than those that would detect a cut or wound.
Could be the case for insects too.
🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
I dont think cows require rembrant, but to a cow rebrant probably looks like pointless smudges...
Similarly there is probably a cow mooing his heart out that sounds like a symphony to another cow, an inspiration with beauty and depth like no other.. but to us it just sounds like a moo.
I dont think a cows depth of beauty is any less, just different.
🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
@saxnot ITs a feature you have to turn on, but its always been there. In our case we enhanced that feature slightly.
🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
Obviously I disagree, but as we covered i dont think its something we could prove too easily either way.
I've seen them cry, ive seen them happy, I've seen them express all the emotions we do at least.
🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
@saxnot I run a mastodon fork that i modified myself and continue to modify.
🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
I dont like lying to myself, but i also do not do veganism for health reasons. With that sad I will never claim that choice is a moral one, I will admit the immorality in that decision.
🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
Agreed
🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
He mentioned earlier he has dogs.
🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
If i only had 15 years left to live and had a puppy I'd sacrafice myself to save that puppy. Mostly because I have no doubt that a puppy, any puppy, will do far greater things in this world than even the greatest human could hope for.
🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
Well points for honesty, and I'm sure many feel the same.
All I know is my puppy (she passed now) **Was** a child as far as i was concerned, absolutely equivelant to a human child in every way except life span. Presuming lifespan were the same I would have saved my puppy and sacraficed a nephew or even myself in a heart beat, likely without even thinking.
🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
that could be, qoto has a very liberal federation policy.
🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
Great now im going to have the Verhurst equation stuck in my mind...
🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
A pet pever of mine is when people refer to known logarithmic growth as "exponential growth" simply because it is in the early part of the growth (well below the carrying capacity)...
Thats a logarithmic graph, not an exponential one, they just look the same early on :)
🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
Actually they charge per plastic bag here. I found it has more than doubled my plastic bag consumption.
Reason being i dont want to have to charge a second time for bags in case i didnt order enough. So i usually order one more bag than i really need to make sure it all fits.
Even with that aside its likely just the poorer people who will care enough to have it impact their buying. People who wont be effected by that penny likely will buy as much as ever, or more than usual in my case.
🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
Biking has a lot to do with infrastructure. In the USA i tried to bike to work and simply couldnt. I t was dangerous, took way too much time, and i was lucky if there was even a legal pathway there.
In the netherlands with their amazing infrastructure it is a no brainer for everyone.
🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
I suspect they dont sync with the other keyservers then maybe?
🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
sorry wrong thread
Bobinas P4G is a social network. It runs on GNU social, version 2.0.1-beta0, available under the GNU Affero General Public License.
All Bobinas P4G content and data are available under the Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 license.