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1. 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Sunday, 15-Dec-2019 17:02:07 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

   • IntegralDuChemin

   @IntegralDuChemin How far does that logic extend? No matter what solution we have in play someone will die some of the time, Shouldnt the goal be to minimize death not eliminate it?

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Sunday, 15-Dec-2019 17:10:59 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • IntegralDuChemin

     @IntegralDuChemin Ahh i see, that is indeed tragic. Though im not sure it has anything to do with church and state. Most people I know whgo are against abortions do not invoke religious reasoning behind their stance

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 16-Dec-2019 16:01:25 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • IntegralDuChemin
     • Steven Roose

     @IntegralDuChemin

     To be fair that isnt a very apt picture of america. While I do admit there are issues, legitimate ones, most of us are all taught in school in sex ed to use condoms, abstinence is rarely taught, and generally we are told to be responsible and understand the consequences of sex (and thus why contraception is imortant).

     Even among the religious condoms are the norm. The stories you hear of teaching abstinence is an edge case, not the norm, among religious or otherwise.

     @stevenroose

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 16-Dec-2019 16:05:39 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • IntegralDuChemin
     • Steven Roose

     @IntegralDuChemin

     Pennsylvania in the 80s. Though I have traveled and gotten a chance to know the culture in many states in the USA from the south, to the west, to the midwest.

     @stevenroose

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 16-Dec-2019 16:06:52 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • IntegralDuChemin
     • Steven Roose

     @IntegralDuChemin

     Well yea, it is a view point which isnt non-existant. But even in the south its not as pervasive as it might appear to an outsider. I never met anyone in the south who thinks condoms should be illegal.

     @stevenroose

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 16-Dec-2019 16:10:00 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • IntegralDuChemin
     • Steven Roose

     @IntegralDuChemin

     Depends, I dont think youll ever see anyone pushing to make condoms or birth control illegal. The real issue is if they will allow health insurance to cover it. There is also potential for abortion to have limitations placed on it, but unlikely to make it illegal.

     I'm all for any solution that strikes a balance between the valid points of both extremes on this argument. I dont think abortion should be illegal but it should be extremely limited, and certainly not up to the point of viability (or anywhere close to that), but I also think that onlyw orks if contraception and pregnancy tests are free and if abortion, when legal, is also free (included in insurance)

     @stevenroose

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 16-Dec-2019 16:11:15 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • IntegralDuChemin
     • Steven Roose

     @IntegralDuChemin

     I never met a creationist in america face to face either, not one who thinks the earth is literally 6000 years old. Yes they do exist but they are extremely rare.

     @stevenroose

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 16-Dec-2019 16:19:25 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • IntegralDuChemin
     • Steven Roose

     @IntegralDuChemin

     I can understand your view, but obviously disagree.

     One needs to protect the decision not just of the mother, but of the unborn child, who doesnt have a voice. Ideally the rights of each should be preseved.

     In my mind once a child develops a brain then it has a right to legal protection, within reason. That happens at about a month and a half to two months.

     So for me the laws should be something like this

     1) Abortion only legal in the first 2 months, after that there must be significant risk to the life of the mother to get an exception.

     2) all legal abortions will be tax-payer funded, as well as condoms and birth control

     3) PRegnancy tests will also be free and tax-payer funded.

     Those three points are the only way I can see to preserve the right to life of all parties involved without creating unmitigated circumstances outside of the womans control, or denying her her right to abort.

     @stevenroose

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 16-Dec-2019 16:19:59 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • IntegralDuChemin
     • Steven Roose

     @IntegralDuChemin

     The states is a nice place to visit but the people in europe are better IMO (well except the brits :) )

     @stevenroose

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 16-Dec-2019 16:44:18 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • IntegralDuChemin

     @IntegralDuChemin

     There is a lot to be disapointed about in the states. But there is also a lot of disinformation. It comes from the fact that its a polarized country and everything is political, where politics is involved so are lies.

     Dont get me wrong there ARE huge issues in those areas int he USA (and in europe too actually), you are just going to have a hard time getting an accurate picture of what those are.

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 16-Dec-2019 16:55:17 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • IntegralDuChemin

     @IntegralDuChemin I'm not saying your mistaken, just that what you hear doesnt reflect reality to well from media is all. For example while healthcare has issues there are many ways in which it is far superior to europe too, but you are unlikely to hear about that.

     Polarization started after 911 and has largely been on the rise since then.

     Abstinence being taught in schools isnt the norm. Im sure its taught in some schools but i never met anyone in america who was personally taught abstinence in school. So its not a common pattern at least.

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 16-Dec-2019 17:00:58 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • IntegralDuChemin

     @IntegralDuChemin Well for example wait times. In europe wait time, even when its critical to ones recovery, is astronomical (even in the countries with the lowest wait time, Netherlands).

     America also tends to have more rigerous pre-emtptive tests that catch things like cancer. It is typical in america to get routine blood tests and other exams they dont tend to do as frequently if at all in europe.

     America also tends to have better survivability rates on many diseases (but not all). For example when it comes to cancer treatment the survivability is highest in the USA.

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 16-Dec-2019 17:03:32 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • IntegralDuChemin

     @Curarpikt

     Sex ed that is lacking I do hear quite often from americans, in my case it was mostly biological and STD based as well. They generally dont even touch on the moral responsibility of sex or why. I will say though they covered condom usage in my school.

     In fact I grew up in the 80's (and early 90s for high school) and we were even given free condoms at school as part of our sex ed. They would just hand them out.

     @IntegralDuChemin

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 16-Dec-2019 17:08:42 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • IntegralDuChemin

     @IntegralDuChemin I cant speak to germany but I know statisically speaking the Netherlands has the shortest average wait time of any europan country. Not only is it much higher in europe but I live int he netherlands and had a spinal injury and my wait time was so long my condition degraded when a simple 5 minute treatment would have potentially saved me from surgery.

     In the netherlands i have never had a wait time shorter than a month for seeing a specialist. I had to first see a GP (who cant do much) then they need to give a referral, then when you hear back you get an appointment in a month.

     Are you sure you arent confusing wait time with a GP and wait time for specialists, surgeries, and other major needs?

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 16-Dec-2019 17:17:51 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • IntegralDuChemin

     @IntegralDuChemin To give you an idea of the numbers if you count all people in germany and the usa that neede3d to wait 2 months or more for a specialist the USAit is half as common as in germany, which is a huge difference

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 16-Dec-2019 17:20:13 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • IntegralDuChemin

     @IntegralDuChemin BTW germany is still one of the lowest on wait times. it is only 40% more common than in the usa its 4.8x more common to wait 2 months or more (1/3 of all patients)

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 16-Dec-2019 17:20:53 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • IntegralDuChemin

     @IntegralDuChemin Ahh yea thats fair, im only considering normal insurance not extra insurance

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 16-Dec-2019 17:24:49 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • IntegralDuChemin

     @IntegralDuChemin Ahh I see

     Generally i find all the forms of insurance we have today (or at least the ones we hear about) are horribly broken in one way or another.

     Which is ashame, everyone is so big on socialized health insurance or free market health insurance no one is bothering to realize there are other choices that, at least in theory, would likely work much better.

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 16-Dec-2019 17:51:17 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • IntegralDuChemin

     @IntegralDuChemin For healthcare.. well there is a lot of nuance we would have to get into, but the big part would be co-op based insurance. Basically where the owners of the insurance company are the insurance holders themselves, but otherwise operate it as a free-market enterprise.

     This eliminates the greed factor, so overpricing isnt an issue, but preserves free market pressures that drive quality up and ensure the policy holders have options.