Conversation

Notices

1. 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 23-Dec-2019 17:27:19 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

   Just a reminder, the house vote on impeachment wasnt even supported by all democrats. 2 democrats voted against it and all republicans voted against it. They couldnt even get support from democrats and they knew damn well they couldnt get support for 2/3 of the senate.

   I hate trump and want him out of office as much as anyone, but the impeachment caused me to loose all respect for democrats.

   It looks more like a desperate attempt to manipulate the 2020 election and win, rather than any real attempt at impeachment. Sad thing is they probably hurt their cause more than helped. I know I have lost what little respect for the democrats I had despite my hatred of trump.

   #uspol #trump #impeach #impeachment

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 23-Dec-2019 18:33:15 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • Kyle

     @khird So the first part.. when you say "it didnt make much sense to me".. . depends on your goal. If your goal is to have a vote on the issue and come to a democratic conclusion then it makes a lot of sense. Winning shouldnt be your goal, arriving at truth should be. Seeing as they couldnt even get democrat support for the impeachment, let alone bipartisan support, their case would appear rather weak, and they know it.

     As for the democrats winning presidency, I'm not so sure. Yes they came close to winning the last election, but that isnt really a measure of their chance of winning this one. Trumps Approval rating just before impeachment was above that of even Obama's. So knowing that it seems clear to me the impeachment was a desperate act to change that. Now that the they dropped the ball on the impeachment I dont think they did themselves any favors really.

     I dunno it looks to me like the democrats are a sinking ship and just grasping at straws to win at this point. In the long run i think it will hur tthem more than help.

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 23-Dec-2019 19:50:10 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • Hiræth Weltschmerz

     @ae WEll several points.

     First and this is fundemental, I dont think its as clear taht trump did something wrong as you suggest. In short he asked the ukranian president if there is any legitimate evidence that Biden committed crimes, he did not ask nor suggest that the ukrain fabricate these crimes in any way, only if evidence existed.

     How is that "clearly" something he did wrong? While I do think he should have probably deferred that to someone else so it wouldnt have the drama associated with it, he also probably thought he was more likely to get cooperation coming from him as the president.

     Considering he didnt ask anyone to fabricate or make up anything and was only asking for legitimate evidence of crime, I'm not sure what it is that he really did wrong in the first place.

     Furthermore the democrats were unable to get even support with their own party. While not a single republican voted to support the impeachment several democrats voted against the impeachment and one even switched their affiliated party in in response shortly after the vote.

     They knew they couldnt even get democrat support, they knew they sure as hell wouldnt get republican support, they knew from the begining they would never stand a chance of getting 2/3rds support. So why even waste our time, and now that they did they prevent it from going to the senate for fear they might loose? If that is the vote that is the vote, the house has no power nor right to control the senate case. IF their going to loose so be it at least then we see the impeachment for what it was, a three ring circus and a desperate attempt for the democrats to try to win the 2020 election when it wasnt looking very good for them at the time.

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Dec-2019 18:21:51 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • Hiræth Weltschmerz

     @ae I appreciate your comments, no need to explain why you offered them, a difference of opinion is always fine.

     A lot of your argument is appeal to majority. Thing is it is a very slim majority, only 52% of americans actually think the impeachment is justified, which is about the same division we see in congress.

     Other point is, the division on impeachment is also almost entierly down partisan lines. What party you support, if you support a party (I do not) almost certainly decides what side you are on regarding the impeachment.

     The truth is, I am an american citizen who fled the country because of extremism on both the left and the right, a result of extreme polarization in america both among its people and its politicians politically. So trying to glean objective reasoning from a society that has lost all sense of objectivity in all things is, well, lost on me.

     Overall your counterargument, while well explained and impassioned, doesnt really make a very convincing argument. Trump **is** a liar and a cheat, I have no doubt he lies and cheats all the time. I also have no doubt there are legitimate reasons to impeach him and legitimate crimes he has commited in general, however the impeachment and the accusations currently in play simply speaking are not examples of valid reasons to impeach someone in my opinon and done more out of desperation from a loosing democratic party that was getting slaughtered in the polls at the time.

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 31-Dec-2019 14:01:01 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • Free Pietje
     • Steven Roose

     @FreePietje

     I'd imagine the vast majority of america would love to do away with the two party system. Me personally I'd like to see parties as a whole disappear.

     @stevenroose

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 31-Dec-2019 16:15:07 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • Free Pietje
     • Steven Roose

     @FreePietje

     It doesnt appear to me parties represent a division of expertise in any country I know of. I dont know anywhere that has a party of mathematicians or economists and another party of law experts or anything ike that (if that were the case I might see parties serving a function but it would all look very different).

     Generally parties look more like religious affiliation. It tells you what dogma a person subscribes to a little else.

     @stevenroose

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 31-Dec-2019 16:43:08 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • Free Pietje

     @FreePietje Sure but that isnt examples of parties having expertise, those are examples of dogmatic principles.

     What we need is not party line dogmatics of either not spending a penny or burning all our money on social programs. We need a nuanced approach where money is spent on some things selectively but not others.

     Thats exactly why we need to do away with parties all together. We dont want the extremism dogma and parties lead to, we want people who are free to arrive at nuanced solutions which would fail under dogma.

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 31-Dec-2019 17:00:54 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • Free Pietje

     @FreePietje In the NL that is true, and I often represent holland as a good example of reasonably sane politics. But that isnt thanks to parties it is despite it.

     Holland would certainly do much better if it didnt have parties as can be seen by the botched sorts of reactionary laws that spring up.. IE shrooms are illegal but truffles which are no better (even higher risk) are legal. Weed has a similar half assed legal structure around it. In general we see the dogma parties bring at work in this, no nuanced well crafted middle ground laws. Just a compromise between two sets of dogmas.

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 31-Dec-2019 17:35:05 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • Free Pietje

     @FreePietje I entierly agree that its bad to compare to other countries. Its one reason that even though i do think you guys are ahead of the game of the majority off countries in how you handle drugs it is still worthy of criticism. If i compared the netherlands to other countries we as a country are probably still ahead of most. I dont mean in terms of legalization but in terms of sympathy and treating drug abuse as a disease more than something to shame.

     But i agree there are also a bunch of other ways we can say the netherlands is ahead, but again its not about if your ahead or not, its just about how much parties and dogma are in the way, and I think that is absolutely present here despite having a better grasp on it than most.

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 31-Dec-2019 18:54:23 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • Free Pietje
     • Steven Roose

     @stevenroose

     I wouldnt mind 600 days without government in america :)

     @FreePietje