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1. 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Saturday, 18-Jan-2020 10:19:26 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

   • Max Strube

   @muehlfield And yet more than half of the people who are the 500 richest people int he world (Fortune 500 members) all started as middle class or lower class individuals. Their wealth was earned, not inherited.

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Saturday, 18-Jan-2020 12:38:44 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • Max Strube

     @muehlfield Sure do, just need to find it again.

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Saturday, 18-Jan-2020 12:42:23 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • Max Strube

     @muehlfield Here ya go, they include two different sources so it seems good in terms of addressing potential bias.

     One source is left-leaning yet still finds 60% of worldwide billionairs were self made. This number is confirmed by forbes int he same article which tends to be more right-leaning. There are tons of other sources you can use to confirm this as well:

     https://www.cnbc.com/2014/10/03/two-thirds-of-billionaires-made-it-themselves.html

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Saturday, 18-Jan-2020 13:00:37 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • Max Strube

     @muehlfield I never said everybody can make it. It takes someone who works smart and invests a lot of time and effort to get there. Very very few people work hard to invest in themselves. Mostly just work mindless jobs and accept their wage and dont really do much to get ahead in life. Thats ok, nothing wrong with that, but it also means youll be stuck somewhere close to the poverty line, as should be the case.

     The only reason anyone can make it is because most people dont invest the effort needed to make it, so that leaves a lot at the top for a few motivated people to share.

     In that regard its pretty fair, if more people started changing their tactic and invested more in themselves and their future then we would have a lot more rich people no doubt.

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Saturday, 18-Jan-2020 13:14:24 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • Max Strube

     @muehlfield Could be, in theory. In practice that doesnt seem to be the case.

     Ask yourself this, how many people in poverty or on the edge of poverty picked a career path specifically because of it being well paid and spend every or most night studying in books or practicing said trade in their free time? Of the people I know literally not one of them.

     Likewise, of the people you know who did pick a profitable career patha nd study and invest in that skill set every day for years and havent given up on that dream, how many of those are living well above the poverty line? From what I've seen nearly all of them.

     I am a successful person financially, I try my best to use what I learned to achieve that success to help others on a similar path. In almost every case the above has held true, Ic ould tell you in the first weeks of taking someone under my wing, based on their own dedication and choices, who is going to be successful and who will be stuck in poverty. Here we are decades later and nearly every one of those predictions seem to have come true. I realize this is anecdotal but to me it seems a pretty obvious truth from my own experiences taking people in and trying to help them towards success.

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Saturday, 18-Jan-2020 13:16:50 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • Max Strube

     @muehlfield Could be, in theory. In practice that doesnt seem to be the case.

     Ask yourself this, how many people in poverty or on the edge of poverty picked a career path specifically because of it being well paid and spend every or most night studying in books or practicing said trade in their free time? Of the people I know literally not one of them.

     Likewise, of the people you know who did pick a profitable career patha nd study and invest in that skill set every day for years and havent given up on that dream, how many of those are living well above the poverty line? From what I've seen nearly all of them.

     I am a successful person financially, I try my best to use what I learned to achieve that success to help others on a similar path. In almost every case the above has held true, Ic ould tell you in the first weeks of taking someone under my wing, based on their own dedication and choices, who is going to be successful and who will be stuck in poverty. Here we are decades later and nearly every one of those predictions seem to have come true. I realize this is anecdotal but to me it seems a pretty obvious truth from my own experiences taking people in and trying to help them towards success.

     With that said the system is absolutely not flawless. The big issue is that many people in poverty or born to poverty (not middle class, poverty) are at an unfair disadvantage. They were raised by parents in poverty and parent who never learned how not to be in poverty. They never had the knowledge needed to teach their kids how to succeed. that is unfair and the system should try to compensate for that, no doubt. But what that means is yes, anyone can succeed, but most people simply arent given the life lessons one would need to be able to. The System should provide better help to correct for that.

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Saturday, 18-Jan-2020 13:30:19 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • Max Strube

     @muehlfield Yup, thats pretty much what I was trying to say at the end. I agree. There is a reason I strongly support programs which are explicitly designed to support peope getting ahead, rather than programs that just dump money in their lap. Because if your poor you DO have a harder time and we should try to ensure anyone who is willing to do the work can make it.

     I generally support ideas like this:

     1) 100% tax payed education at all levels up to and including PhD

     2) incentive based welfare. That is, everyone gets the bare minimum not to starve to death but if you want more than half a room and stale bread for dinner then you need to be commited to job training or education, but if you persue such things (which are free per #1) then welfare should be generous with both housing and food so long as you continue to perform

     3) healthcare reform as well, a bit of a tangent but we need better mental health for the poor if they are to get over many of the issues they deal with, not to mention physical health.

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Saturday, 18-Jan-2020 13:38:01 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • Max Strube

     @muehlfield I dont like the idea of UBI, feel too much like throwing money at a problem..

     I dont really advocate for performance based welfare exactly. Like the amount of welfare you get shouldn't be based on how well you do at school or training programs. The only criteria should be that you are leveraging such programs and pursuing self-improvement. Beyond that trying to quantify performance is just too tricky.

     But I do think the amount of help you get should be largely dependent on how much effort you put into getting out of the situation your in.

     As someone who has invested most of their life into helping others I realize one important thing. Some people are loss causes (at least until they change their approach).. These people cant be helped with money. Though as I said i think there is hope for these people with therapy in many cases, but even then they need to be willing to seek therapy.

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Saturday, 18-Jan-2020 13:55:55 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • Max Strube

     @muehlfield Alright, as always it was nice chatting with you. Feel free to interject later if you have any thoughts you'd like to share.