Conversation

Notices

1. Eugen 💀 (gargron@mastodon.social)'s status on Saturday, 26-Feb-2022 10:57:02 UTC Eugen 💀

   If you are siding with Russia's government during this conflict, please block me.

   • Tagomago (tagomago@mastodon.social)'s status on Saturday, 26-Feb-2022 10:56:55 UTC Tagomago

     in reply to

     • Robert_R_Freitag_II

     @Robert_R_Freitag_II @Gargron

     Seems that being against Putin (as an authoritarian) AND any other military apparatus is hard to understand, surprisingly.

   • robert_r_freitag_ii@mastodon.social's status on Saturday, 26-Feb-2022 10:57:01 UTC Robert_R_Freitag_II

     in reply to

     @Gargron I've reached a similar conclusion. But I also understand the domestic issues that have led to a lack of support for NATO and the US. It's really a horrible situation all the way around. Which I guess is why Putin picked this time to do this, when the West is weakened by a corrupt and incompetent leadership.

   • robert_r_freitag_ii@mastodon.social's status on Saturday, 26-Feb-2022 13:03:32 UTC Robert_R_Freitag_II

     in reply to

     • Tagomago

     @tagomago @Gargron I think that our positions have some overlap, but my considerations are maybe more pragmatic than idealistic. I'm concerned mostly about the ability of the West to effectively oppose Putin with an alienated, cynical and demoralized population rather than a principled stand against violence on principle.

   • robert_r_freitag_ii@mastodon.social's status on Saturday, 26-Feb-2022 13:04:03 UTC Robert_R_Freitag_II

     in reply to

     • Tagomago

     @tagomago "Power abhors a vacuum".

     Don't make the mistake in thinking humans are rational actors. Only 13 year olds believe that it possible.

   • Tagomago (tagomago@mastodon.social)'s status on Saturday, 26-Feb-2022 13:04:05 UTC Tagomago

     in reply to

     • Robert_R_Freitag_II

     @Robert_R_Freitag_II Yeah, maybe. However, if you ask being pragmatic you'll have to understand the population being pragmatic too.

   • robert_r_freitag_ii@mastodon.social's status on Saturday, 26-Feb-2022 13:04:06 UTC Robert_R_Freitag_II

     in reply to

     • Tagomago

     @tagomago Exactly my point.

   • Tagomago (tagomago@mastodon.social)'s status on Saturday, 26-Feb-2022 13:04:06 UTC Tagomago

     in reply to

     • Robert_R_Freitag_II

     @Robert_R_Freitag_II Except for the fact that you assume being pragmatic is engaging in military action, whereas the population don't?

   • Tagomago (tagomago@mastodon.social)'s status on Saturday, 26-Feb-2022 13:04:22 UTC Tagomago

     in reply to

     • Robert_R_Freitag_II

     @Robert_R_Freitag_II We wouldn't be remotely in the situation we are today if people would've ever had the ability to choose.

   • robert_r_freitag_ii@mastodon.social's status on Saturday, 26-Feb-2022 13:04:26 UTC Robert_R_Freitag_II

     in reply to

     • Tagomago

     @tagomago
     Don't fool yourself into thinking that people will just spontaneously "do the right thing". If that were even a remote possibility we wouldn't be in the situation we are today.

   • Tagomago (tagomago@mastodon.social)'s status on Saturday, 26-Feb-2022 13:04:28 UTC Tagomago

     in reply to

     • Robert_R_Freitag_II

     @Robert_R_Freitag_II That's what I call a cynical axiom. A handy wildcard to justify any authoritarian strategy.

   • robert_r_freitag_ii@mastodon.social's status on Saturday, 26-Feb-2022 13:05:19 UTC Robert_R_Freitag_II

     in reply to

     • Tagomago

     @tagomago Yeah--because they're coerced. Because there will always be some meathead out there with a gun. Which is why you need a gun.

     Yes, it would be rational if we all just lived in peace and harmony. But humans are not rational. That fantasy will never come to pass.

   • robert_r_freitag_ii@mastodon.social's status on Saturday, 26-Feb-2022 13:21:51 UTC Robert_R_Freitag_II

     in reply to

     • Tagomago

     @tagomago Cynical? Maybe. But also accurate.