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1. 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 20-Aug-2019 23:39:13 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

   Just a reminder

   #depression #MentalHealth

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 20-Aug-2019 23:45:34 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • louis

     @louis What is?

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 20-Aug-2019 23:51:10 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • louis

     @louis Yes I better understand your stance. I dont agree with it entirely but I do understand what you were trying to say now.

     On the one hand I do agree that most psychiatric disorders are a bit arbitrary. In the sense that they just describe arbitrary set of behaviors that tend to be self destructive. They are not particularly special compared to any other personality traits you could describe

     The key here is two fold though. 1) that these traits are self-destructive, thus why psychiatry or other forms of help are important. 2) Medications DO help, and some people need them and they are certainly better off than not having them. Of course a person should strive to not need them, as a solution with fewer meds has fewer side effects (like being a zombie). But they are often a necessary stepping stone (and for some perpetual). I have seen it work for people who otherwise would have killed themselves long ago. Solutions arent perfect though sadly. So they dont always work either.

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 20-Aug-2019 23:58:00 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • louis

     @louis Depends on which psychiatrist we are talking about. I have no doubt there have been plenty of prejudice psychiatrists and teachings throughout the years. That is true of almost any subject sadly. But I dont think that it is valid to make those statements as sweeping statements of all psychiatric or even the majority of modern day psychiatry.

     As for solving problems, it depends. Generally what it does is put someone in a sane enough head space to seek therapy, then (at least sometimes) get healthy enough to get off the medicings.

     I know countless people who spent many years suicidal and depressed. Some of them went on medication and a few years later with therapy were better, their problem was "solved". Even though they cant solve everyone's problems medication can be a route to a solution for many.

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Wednesday, 21-Aug-2019 00:01:30 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     sure

   • a Claes unto himself 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛 (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Wednesday, 21-Aug-2019 08:16:19 UTC a Claes unto himself 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛

     • louis
     @louis @freemo The existence of racist and homophobic psychiatrists says nothing about the validity of using drugs to get your mind to the state where you can take control of your life.
     🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 repeated this.
   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Wednesday, 21-Aug-2019 10:49:37 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • a Claes unto himself 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛
     • louis

     @louis

     All I know is i studied a lot of psychiatry and while some people will always be racist it is clear to me the study and science is largely not racist in how it is structured.

     There is a lot of racism historically, no doubt, but that doesnt invalidate the modern science now that we have eliminated the bulk of that racism from the science.

     I jusge if someone or something is racist not be how it was 100+ years ago but by how it is now.

     @clacke

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Wednesday, 21-Aug-2019 10:50:15 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • a Claes unto himself 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛
     • louis

     @louis

     Hitler liked cake, therefore cakes are racist.

     @clacke

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Wednesday, 21-Aug-2019 10:52:24 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • a Claes unto himself 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛
     • louis

     @louis

     Sorry but determining what is a fact and what is not is most certainly disputable. Especially if talking about the interpretation of those facts.

     People dont realize that deciding what is or is not fact is itself opinion. Ergo any claim to facts is absolutely disputable.

     @clacke

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Wednesday, 21-Aug-2019 10:55:33 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • a Claes unto himself 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛
     • louis

     @louis

     But that was an argument. The argument was "Your data came from an unreliable source thus is itself unreliable". That is a pretty damn good argument actually.

     @clacke

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Wednesday, 21-Aug-2019 10:59:25 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • a Claes unto himself 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛
     • louis

     @clacke

     Agreed if a source or even a person has very clear bias and agenda, rather than an objective evaluation of fact, it usually means its too low a priority on my to-do list for me to get to it. It isnt about willful ignorance so much as just prioritizing your time to bes maximize how you learn useful new information. Discredited sources generally waste time in that pursuit more than other ventures.

     @louis

   • a Claes unto himself 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛 (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Wednesday, 21-Aug-2019 15:07:06 UTC a Claes unto himself 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛

     • louis
     @louis @freemo I'm sorry, but the reasoning here is on the level that nazis had dentists and wanted to kill people they perceived as having bad teeth and therefore you shouldn't floss.
     🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 repeated this.
   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Wednesday, 21-Aug-2019 22:37:48 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • a Claes unto himself 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛
     • BUTTFACESTUPID

     @clacke

     Sorry for the quality of this thread :(

     @SuckMyDick

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Wednesday, 21-Aug-2019 22:38:54 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • BUTTFACESTUPID

     @SuckMyDick How do I subscribe to your newsletter?

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Wednesday, 21-Aug-2019 22:43:19 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • BUTTFACESTUPID

     @SuckMyDick Just give me the frequency. I have all the licenses and equipment for it. I can cover the whole HF spectrum :)

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Wednesday, 21-Aug-2019 22:46:31 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • BUTTFACESTUPID

     @SuckMyDick I'll be there :)

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Thursday, 22-Aug-2019 00:03:25 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • a Claes unto himself 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛
     • louis
     • alysonsee (Fca)

     @clacke

     I dont know the facts here so i cant say for sure. But if you can show that there is more stigma (perhaps by showing a low prevalence of seeking help when you need it) then I'd say its a fairly rational argument. I dont doubt this is the case, just haven't confirmed it.

     @alysonsee @louis

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Thursday, 22-Aug-2019 00:05:31 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • a Claes unto himself 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛
     • louis
     • :verified: :verified: :verified: Glad I couldn't help :verified: :verified: :verified:

     @gladicouldnthelp

     I just spent a Dutch summer where there is literally a few hours of dark and its not even night technically but twilight.

     After a summer of near perpetual light I **wish** I had half a year of darkness. In fact I would LOVE it. Biking int he middle of the night is my favorite.

     @clacke @louis

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Thursday, 22-Aug-2019 00:20:23 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • a Claes unto himself 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛
     • louis
     • alysonsee (Fca)
     • sim

     @sim

     Its hard for me to respond to that because i wasnt there, we just have your opinion. While i completely believe it is an honest opinion you hold, its still tricky on a few accounts.

     For example if i take everything at face value then it sounds like you just had some really shitty doctors. From what I know of UK healthcare that is no surprise your system is horrific and you will have a hard time finding qualified doctors in general.

     If that is the case that is not an argument against psychiatry it is only an arguments against unqualified psychiatrists. Which i agree are likely to do more harm than good.

     The other side of the coin is that depending on the nature of your mental health its hard to gauge what sort of mental health issues you have and if that prevents you or not from being objective about your own treatment. Not saying this applies to you, I dont know you. But it is common for many with mental illness.

     I once helped someone I cared about who as he got older developed Paranoid Schizophrenia rather severely. When untreated he couldn't sleep, believed people were beaming thoughts in his head, telling him to kill himself, i would often find him just crying in his room alone due to all the stress.

     Despite this he refused treatment of any kind. He felt everyone was part of some grand conspiracy, doctors, me, everyone, so he naturally refused. Ultimately i told him the only way i would continue to help him is if he was getting treatment, otherwise he had to go back and live with his parents. This was enough for him to seek his treatment and take medication.

     The thing is on medication he gave me a huge hug and cried as he told me how much happier he was and how grateful he was to me for forcing it on him in his otherwise incoherent state. Thing is after a few weeks he told me he was stopping the medication as he didnt feel he actually needed, he thought he was healthy again and the meds just "made him tired". So he went off of it and back to his old self in a few days.

     The thing is when he isn't on the meds he would say things that sound similar, that it was all horrible and just part of the torture and "mind games" of the conspiracy. Despite the fact that clearly when he was on it and rational he felt it was helpful.

     Long story short its hard to know without knowing someones mental health history if that may not apply or not.

     @alysonsee @clacke @louis

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Thursday, 22-Aug-2019 00:25:32 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • a Claes unto himself 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛
     • louis
     • alysonsee (Fca)

     @clacke

     Very happy to see the positive turn around. Reading article now.

     @alysonsee @louis

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Thursday, 22-Aug-2019 00:34:20 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • a Claes unto himself 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛
     • louis
     • alysonsee (Fca)

     @clacke

     Ok so read the article.. Here is my take.

     1) In this case I'd imagine that the article is likely somewhat accurate just because it sounds plausible.

     2) the article on cites a single reliable source, and that link didn't work. so I cant confirm the data myself. Though again If i had to guess i wouldn't be surprised if the article is still true.

     3) vice is certainly as discredited a source as the other one presented earlier. They are known to have a fairly extreme left leaning political agenda. Objectivity is not their goal, promoting a left-agenda is. I am not saying the left is bad or anything, only that this is no more an objective source than the other links.

     So in short, I dont disagree with your general argument, though still lack the data to confirm. But the link itself is not a credible source to make your case regardless.

     @alysonsee @louis

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Thursday, 22-Aug-2019 00:38:20 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • a Claes unto himself 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛
     • louis
     • alysonsee (Fca)
     • sim

     While I stand by the point that medication and therapy when done right and with the proper care are overall more beneficial than harmful I did want to share this image just for the lols and to lighten the mood a little.

     this is basically how you guys see pharmacists :)

     @sim @alysonsee @clacke @louis

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Thursday, 22-Aug-2019 00:41:08 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • a Claes unto himself 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛
     • louis
     • alysonsee (Fca)
     • sim

     @sim

     I beleive you. I have had some pretty horrific expiernce in American hospitals (not so much mental health but id imagine they can be pretty shitty too).

     But i maintain my point, the issue you had was shitty doctors, not so much the whole principle of mental health, treatment and medication, just the more specific case of how it applied to you.

     I'd also agree that we should strive to make sure that doesnt happen. We need to make sure we have well trained, high quality psychiatrists. That is so critical.

     @alysonsee @clacke @louis

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Thursday, 22-Aug-2019 01:02:48 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • a Claes unto himself 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛
     • louis
     • alysonsee (Fca)
     • sim

     @sim

     Sadly I find that is a fairly universal problem with all single-payer healthcare. You get severly underpaid healthcare workers who need to diagnose you in 10 minutes and are paid so low no one wants to enter the industry either.

     Dont get me wrong I'm not arguing for a purely free-market healthcare system either. I have a pretty solid solution IMO that is neither of these.

     @alysonsee @clacke @louis

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Thursday, 22-Aug-2019 14:01:45 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • a Claes unto himself 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛
     • louis
     • alysonsee (Fca)
     • sim
     • jack - Shaman Emeritus at Neckbeard, Inc.

     @jack

     If we use the opinions of licensed therapists to sway us. Then why THIS licensed therapist you linked? Why not one fromt he vast majority who are more educated (not just licensed therapy but actual psychologists who need much more training)? Seems like a overly cherry picked source with minimal credentials...

     @alysonsee @clacke @louis @sim

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Thursday, 22-Aug-2019 14:04:59 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • a Claes unto himself 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛
     • louis
     • alysonsee (Fca)
     • sim
     • jack - Shaman Emeritus at Neckbeard, Inc.
     • vix

     @jack

     I've been to many a Psychiatrist. Not one has ever suggested to me a drug.

     The reason its so common is because if someone is severe enough to seek mental health there is a good chance they need something more than just talk to cope with their symptoms.

     Its exactly the same as the following silly argument: "Isn't it weird that most people who go to see a surgeon wind up getting one of the 20 surgeries that doctor performs".. Well duh, thats probably why most people went to see said doctor, to get treatment, so lets not be surprised that they... get treatment.

     @alysonsee @clacke @vix @louis @sim

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Thursday, 22-Aug-2019 14:06:33 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • Werekat

     @werekat Doesnt surprise me at all. Any healthcare system that is based on extremist ideologies like 100% pure free market or single-payer universal healthcare is bound to be shitty. We see it in the USA, England, and apparently Sweden. I can say as a Dutch person it is also true of the Dutch system.

     Sadly people are just really shitty at come up with good systems that dont behave at one end of an extreme or another.