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1. 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 09-Dec-2019 19:56:29 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

   @tuxcrafting Whats a good one? Only gui based coding ive seen has been horrific.

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 09-Dec-2019 19:59:50 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @tuxcrafting Fair argument but even then I'm skeptical. While i couod see the benefit of better visualizations I'd argue text is still the best way to code.

     Let me guys your a windows user?

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 09-Dec-2019 20:04:28 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @tuxcrafting well just compare the speed fo doing something in your terminal vs a gui (the windows way)?

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 09-Dec-2019 20:07:32 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • DEATH TO GASTONS DESU~

     @roka

     What I said is not incorrect, I said I am running linux, I am. I did not specify what my userland was, it might be GNU it might be something else.

     So my statment holds true, it just had limited information itn it.

     @tuxcrafting

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 09-Dec-2019 20:08:48 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @tuxcrafting That is likely something I could get behind then.

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 09-Dec-2019 21:25:05 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • DEATH TO GASTONS DESU~

     @r

     I disagree with your leadin that calling it "linux" shows ignorance of the origin. I'd say the opposite, it shows an understanding of the separation between these concepts and means you wish to specify something more general than **just** gnu linux.

     As otehrs have mentioned many of us dont run a GNU userland, some of us do. Sometimes we want to be inclusive of all linux, not just GNU/Linux.

     Its really no different than specifying Linux as opposed to your distro. You are intentionally be general so as to be inclusive of all the flavors.

     @tuxcrafting @roka

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 09-Dec-2019 21:27:49 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • DEATH TO GASTONS DESU~

     @tuxcrafting

     Nope, but even if it was and he is just copying it in multiple places, it still is worth countering.

     @r @roka

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 09-Dec-2019 21:40:01 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • DEATH TO GASTONS DESU~

     @r

     The part you are missing is when people say "I use linux" we arent trying to claim that our operating system is linux, we are only stating that we use the linux kernel and are not being specific about any other details about the operating system, intentionally so.

     Even just saying "GNU Linux" would not be an apt description of the operating system you as it says nothing about several components such as package management, which are part of an OS.

     So your argument is on a faulty assumption that people are saying "Linux" is intended to be a descriptor of the entire operating system, when it is not.

     @tuxcrafting @roka

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 09-Dec-2019 21:47:59 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • DEATH TO GASTONS DESU~

     @r

     I dont think anyone is denying that GNU didnt make contributions that will show up in any system if you look deep enough.. Thats not really the point.

     We simply dont feel there is a need to list all the contributions in our current userland when all we are trying to state is that we are loyal to the kernel itself.

     @tuxcrafting @roka

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 09-Dec-2019 21:53:48 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @r Again that is ignorant to the point I made. I dont see any obligation to mention one among many userland programs. Particularly if they are things I personally wish to see phased out and replaced and do my best to use alternatives

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 09-Dec-2019 21:54:27 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @r yes I am all about the linux kernel and linus, not so much of a GNU fan boy however.

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 09-Dec-2019 21:56:13 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @r No thats not what I said, I support open-source software, I just prefer open source alternatives to the GNU wherever I can.

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 09-Dec-2019 22:00:14 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @r I mean hell your lucky I said Linux at all, usually I prefer to say *nix

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 09-Dec-2019 22:18:30 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @r I'm well aware of the fact that binary blobs occur in the kernel,

     If you have a better solution like all open source feel free to contribute it.

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 09-Dec-2019 22:29:21 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @r I read it the first time. You seem to think I am somehow against GNU, I am not. I simply do not have lyalty to GNU being on my system.

     You seem to be making a lot of assumptions. Not sure why you are upset that someone prefers to say " I use the linux kernel" insisting they should specify their userland too

     Long story short I will happily use alternatives to GNU userland, I would not be so happy to use alternatives to the linux kernel. so If i announce what I use proudly, I announce the kernel.

     Nothing more nothing less and you are doing some impressive mental gymnastics to make a mountain out of a molehill.

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 09-Dec-2019 22:34:19 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @yolo

     Nothing is wrong with it. I just have no loyalty to using it and am more than happy to use non-GNU replacements on linux. Especially so if they have less-viral licenses, but that isnt really a huge driving factor.

     It has less to do wiht me taking issue with the GNU which i dont 9but to listen to "r" you would think I do) and more to do with the fact that my loyalty in terms of the software I use is centered around the linux kernel. Thats the must-have component for me.

     GNU is fine its just not the part im going to shout from the roof tops is all. Its not the part of my system I happen to be announcing to others or feel relevant to mention most of the time (unless being asked about my userland)

     @r

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 09-Dec-2019 22:50:55 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @yolo

     There are various distros that lack or replace GNU to varying degrees. Andoid pretty much eliminates it completely.

     Regardless there are a few distros which have little or no GNU in them.

     But the fact that the GNU orginzation contributed some vital parts to the userland is nice and all, but so have thousands of other organizations and people.

     Thats why I'm liking going to use one of three terminology, for the sake of percision and because of what information I hope to convey:

     1) *nix - I use this just talk about the whole family of POSIX systems

     2) Linux - I use this when I want to convey was flavor of kernel I use specifically. This is most common lately since all my systems run linux, not all of them run GNU, so it would be incorrect to say "I only use GNU/Linux" but it would be correct to say "I only use Linux"

     3) Archlinux - I use this when I want to specify the entire operating system I use. This will convey the fact that I am using GNU userland, or at least that I am likely to use it, but also convery much of the other non-GNU userland I use. If i want to describe my whole operating system then this is the term I use.

     I see little need to specify GNU/Linux which is basically just saying what kernel I use and arbitrarily picking an organization that happened to write a few key userland apps and libraries I use (which ignoring all the other organizations involved). It strikes me as a largely non-descript and pointless phraseology.

     It has nothing to do with hating the GNU though or anything like that.

     @r

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 10-Dec-2019 00:08:29 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @georgia

     No one is arguing against the idea that the GNU apps have been huge in the linux world and still is for many, thats cool bro. I just usually dont feel the need to give them a byline anymore than the rest of my userland.

     They are great, they are historic, praise the GNU gods, I get it, thats awesome. I'm over them. and I'm digging the alternatives more frankly. I hope they get a note in the history books though.

     @yolo @r

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 10-Dec-2019 00:16:21 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @georgia

     *BSD is an example, android is another, then there are also even some distros that did away with GNU to the best of their ability.

     Also the GNU apps are not any one thing, some of wha GNU provides have more alternatives than others. You cant talk about it like it is one monolithic thing.

     @yolo @r

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 10-Dec-2019 00:22:33 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @georgia

     If it uses the linux kernel then it is linux, it just doesnt have any of the userland, including GNU

     Thats a lot of mental gymnastics.

     @yolo @r

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 10-Dec-2019 00:27:36 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @georgia

     Just skimmed it, those points appear to all be the points I had already known and considered before I made my statement, It is clear the Auther doesnt know the difference between "Linux" and "GNU/Linux"

     @yolo @r

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 10-Dec-2019 09:17:09 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     • DEATH TO GASTONS DESU~
     • Shamar

     @Shamar
     Whether the assumption is reasonable or not isnt what defines if it is faulty. The fact remains in this case the assumption was flat our wrong, and thus faulty.
     @r @tuxcrafting @roka

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 10-Dec-2019 09:32:38 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @miup

     I disagree, most **windows** users dont differentiate, this is mostly because its compiled as one monolithic beast with little ability to swap out parts.

     Us linux users, however, recognize for us the line in the sand isnt so clear. When we do not wish to differentiate between userland and kernel we use the name of the distrobution. When we do wish to make the distinction we say "Linux" if the userland isnt important to the context.

     @yolo @a1batross @r @georgia

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 10-Dec-2019 09:45:01 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @miup

     I am not speaking for everyone, I am only speaking for people who say "I run linux", such as myself. If you use additional qualifiers then you are not part of the group I describe obviously.

     My point is that "GNU" is not descriptive of the userland. It only describes one organization that contributes to the userland out of many other non-gnu userland components...

     As such linux refers to the kernel, the distro refers to the kernel + userland.

     When you say "linux based" all you are saying is the same as me with more words "I have a linux kernel and some other unspecified software that runs on top of it"

     @yolo @a1batross @r @georgia

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 10-Dec-2019 09:53:21 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @miup

     Whether they notice it or see it doesnt change what it is.

     Point is saying GNU/Linux is rather pointless.. it would be like saying "I run Chrome/Linux" as a way of suggesting you run chrome for your web browser just because most of what you see when you sit behind a computer is your web browser.

     Yes you could replace the linux kernel and your system would look exactly the same. Despite appearences however you'd no longer have a linux system.

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 10-Dec-2019 10:04:31 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @miup Right we have a term for that though: *nix

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 10-Dec-2019 10:07:52 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @miup Same meaning yes, more commonly used though.

   • 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 10-Dec-2019 10:13:03 UTC 🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @r

     Making the distinction of OS is certainly a fine thing. But on linux that distinction is far more fuzzy than on windows due to its modular nature and the fact that there is no hard line between what is built in or not.

     Thats exactly why if i have any wish to refer to my OS as a whole then I reference my distro, its the only sure way to make sure the entire grey area is included.

     The very idea of there being an "OS" seems outdated to me on linux. All you have is a kernel and a huge array of userland that sits on top, collectively making the distro, that is all.

     @yolo @a1batross @miup @georgia